Brand Design Masters Podcast

Mastering High Conversion Copywriting with Ash Chow 


Philip VanDusen: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Brand Design Masters podcast. I'm super excited today because we're going to be talking about one of my favorite subjects in business, which is copywriting. And copywriting is one of the most important aspects of business and sales. And today I'm really I'm honored because I'm joined by a lovely woman named Ash Chow and Ash is a launch strategist and conversion copywriter for creators and coaches who are looking to skyrocket their visibility and bank accounts through the use of copy that creates a powerful emotional bond. 

Specializing in high performing sales pages and actionable prelaunch content. Ash is the go to copywriter on online business owners and sometimes even other copywriters. She's the person that you want to call when you need to make a splash with your launch or without sacrificing your integrity or your profit. 

And with that, I will welcome Ash. 

Ash Chow: Hey, Philip. It is so great to be here. I'm super honored. 

Philip VanDusen: When we talked before we actually hit record, I learned that you actually started off your journey in law school. So I'd love I'm super interested in career pivots. And so I would love to hear about how you ended up in law school and what was it that made you decide that wasn't the thing for you? 

Ash Chow: Yeah, that's a really great story because it was, I actually always thought I was going to be a lawyer from the age of 15. So even though a lot of kids and teenagers, they struggle to sometimes figure out what they want to do with their career paths. I was like one of those weirdo nerds who was like very set on like having an A plus high powered career. 

And I was like, you know what? I'm good with what I'm doing. Words. I like writing. So being a lawyer, it is. And so I worked really hard and I did achieve my goal of getting into law school only to get there and realize that maybe that wasn't actually what I wanted. And I think I went through a lot of soul searching and realized that I liked the idea of having a high powered career, being seen as successful and of course making good money. 

But turns out I didn't actually. want to be an actual lawyer in order to achieve those things. So I went through this like existential crisis of I'd spent a lot of time and of course money to get into law school. I was halfway through a six year law degree and I then had to figure out, do I want to keep going with this or what do I do instead? 

And so in true like millennial fashion, I just started. word vomiting a lot of my feelings about this existential crisis online. The internet was very readily available to me. So I just started blogging about this like existential crisis I was going through in my twenties. And that blog just so happened to get noticed by a business owner who really resonated a lot with what I was saying. 

And so she reached out and said, could I hire you to write some of these words for me? And so that was when I discovered copywriting was a thing and that you could make good money from it. And it actually satisfied so much of what I wanted and I didn't need to be a lawyer to do it. And so four years later, here we are. 

Philip VanDusen: So what, you don't just jump in and become an expert conversion copywriter, right? It's easy. I'm not going to say it's easy. I've always found copywriting to a certain extent, relatively easy. I come from a, my dad was an English professor and a journalist. And so I grew up in a writing household, but there is a, There's certainly a science behind conversion or sales copywriting. 

So when you jumped into this new world of copywriting, how did you learn about what converted and what didn't what made really great business copy? 

Ash Chow: Yeah, I think that when we boil down what really good sales copy is and how to actually make sales. All it really is making the other person feel really seen and understood. 

And so what I mean by that is if I wanted to sell like my copywriting service, it might be like making my prospect feel really seen in that. Hey, like I see that you have a message that you want to get out there, but maybe you're just feeling a little bit too close to it. Like all your stories, everything you want to say, it's just, All caught up in your head and it's really hard to actually articulate it and don't worry. 

It's not your fault. Everyone goes do it, but that's why it helps to hire someone like me to pull to untangle that message and pull it out. And so what I did there is just really make the other person feel seen and validated that yes. Also, that's what my problem is. I'm too close to my message or it's just too caught up in my head, but. 

Oh, it turns out the solution I need might be an objective third party to help untangle the message. And so when you understand at its core that it's all about just helping the other person in front of you or your online audience feel validated with their issues and then present the solution to them, it becomes really easy to get them to take action no matter what. 

What you're trying to sell. 

Philip VanDusen: So when you're working with your clients, how do you get to that kernel of the problem? How do you uncover that when you're working with your clients? What's the process for you? 

Ash Chow: So at its core, it's very much being able to ask the right questions and listening Which I think a lot of people can struggle with active listening, but really figuring out. 

Okay, What are the challenges you face when you're going through this specific challenge, whether it's writing a copy or writing a copy or increasing your visibility or making more money what are you actually struggling with? And then they might share I just can't find the right words or I feel like I sound stupid or I'm worried about coming across as unprofessional and just really digging deeper into okay, so how does that make you feel? 

Feel and they might say, I feel if I look, I'm professional, then no one wants to hire me. And so just really like asking lots of questions to get deeper into what is that actual problem? And number two, how do they feel about it? And so practically I really like doing this through my sales calls. 

So if you are not recording your sales calls, you really should be, because it is like a gold mine. Of data and information on the exact language your prospects are using. And so when I'm talking to them about like, why did you choose to jump on a call with me today? Or what made you want to reach out to me via my website? 

Then they'll tell me like, oh, I really struggle to with the blank page. Or I get really intimidated when someone asks me a question and I don't know how to tell them what I do in my business. So that's one way. And then the second way is if I don't. If I'm not able to have one on one direct conversations with my audience, I am someone who is a frequent stalker in Reddit and on Facebook groups because I feel like a lot of people are very unfiltered about their opinions and their feelings on there and I'm paying very close attention to how they are describing their challenges and their feelings and desires and I'm pretty much Literally copying and pasting what they're saying, keeping that in some sort of data bank, and then using those words in my copy. 

And what happens is when people read that, they're like, oh my god, I literally thought of that yesterday. And it makes them like, by mirroring that language, they instantly start to trust me, and they're like, okay, she seems like she gets it. I'm so much more interested in wanting to hire her or learn more about her. 

Philip VanDusen: So you're doing research on your clients who are writing a sales page to sell something. Let's say that person is selling interior design. And so you need to find out what are the triggers? What are those problem? pain points that person's perspective customers have. So you will go stalk Reddit Reddit forums and forums on interior design to hear about people who are looking for interior design and what their problems are and their needs are and stuff like that. 

So you ask your client some questions about who you think your customers are and what their pain points are, but then you actually do some true research into those people where you can find them. Is that, I'm getting that? 

Ash Chow: Yes, and that's exactly the process, Philip. So I ask my client first, because they always know data about their audience, or at least who they hope to attract. 

And then the second thing I actually do is I try to reach out to that audience directly. So if my client has an email list, which hopefully all of us have. Our building at the moment, if my client has an email list full of her ideal audience, I might say to her, Hey, I'm going to write a survey for you where I ask all these questions about what challenges they face when it comes to decorating their space, what they ideally want their space to look and feel like, what's stopping them from hiring an interior designer. 

And I might get my client to send out that research survey to an audience because that is the best way for me to figure out. In written language, the exact words they are using. So that has yielded incredible amount of data for me. And so I really highly recommend every quarter or so sending some sort of feedback survey to your audience, because that not only helps your sales copy, it also helps you come up with content for your socials, your marketing. 

So many people say, I don't know what to talk about on my marketing. I don't know what content my clients are going to, or my audience are going to like. And the. Answer to that is literally like, why not try asking them what they want to hear from you? The number one is the survey, but sometimes of course, if you have a small email list or an unengaged email list or a non existent one, that's okay. 

But then that's where I then turn to those forums like Facebook and Reddit and even like YouTube comments to see what they're saying about interior design. So those are my two recommendations. Send out a research survey and then number two, go stalk online. 

Philip VanDusen: Yeah. Early in my business I got that suggestion exactly from someone in a peer mastermind that I was in. 

And I was saying, I'm thinking about the content I'm doing and I'm possibly doing a course and I'm just really curious about what my audience, what their biggest pain point is. And someone just said, just email them. And so I sent my email list and they said, make it super simple. And you could do a survey of course, but he said, make it super simple. 

Just say, what's. Just hit reply and tell me what's the biggest problem you're struggling with right now. And I sent it out to I think 7, 000 people at that point and I got 275 responses and I took all of those responses and I just cut and paste them into a Google doc, categorize them by the topic or theme and then sorted it. 

And I was shocked because I thought people were going to say, Oh, I need to learn the Adobe creative suite better, or I need to design better, or I need to get more clients. By far the biggest thing that creative professionals were struggling with was time management and organization. And I was like, my head was blown. 

And it's like, why not just ask? 

Ash Chow: Yes. That's amazing. 

Philip VanDusen: Because you can really you can, by looking at your competition, you can make assumptions about who your customer is or what those pains point are. But if you have a channel to them, and that's why Thank you. You're preaching the choir by saying everyone should have an email list because everyone should have an email list. 

That's how you really find it out. So what would you say the, how would you break down the basic structure of a really powerful sales page? 

Ash Chow: Yeah, that's a really great question. When it comes to a powerful sales page, I think the best way to think about it is to step back and think, all the sales page really is just you having a conversation with your prospect. 

Because I think when people first hear the word, Sales page, they get quite paralyzed and intimidated because some sales pages are just so big and not only that, like mentally, that your sales page needs to convert and get you sales, right? And so that mental pressure really makes a lot of non writers and even writers just freeze up because they have no idea what to say and what to put and how to structure it. 

But if you just take a step back and think, okay. All a sales page is just giving the other person all of the information they need to make an informed decision about why they should work with me or why they should buy from me. Then the answers start to appear. So if you think about, if you're like a website designer and you think about what would make someone, what does someone need to know in order to confidently pay me 5, 000 or 10, 000 to do their website? 

First of all, they'll need to know it. Why do I need a really good website in the first place, right? Like, why is it even worth taking the time to hire someone? And so you might say Your website should ideally be your 24 seven salesperson. And if it's not converting your traffic into leads, then I'm sorry, but there's a problem there. 

And then you might, again, start to empathize with why your audience hasn't reached out to a website designer like you, like maybe they haven't had the time or they don't have the expertise and they just feel embarrassed about their website. That's you empathizing with the challenges. And then from there, it's okay, we've chatted about their problems, but what is it that they actually need now? So what is the solution that I'm going to provide? And so then you might transition to saying it's okay. We've all been there, but what you really need now to get to the next level in your business is like a cohesive aesthetic website that really positions you as the. 

Premium agency or the premium service provider you want to be. So now right there, you've just introduced exactly what the next step what is the next step in your journey they should take, which is okay. Having a cohesive website. And then from there, that's where you can introduce yourself because I think a mistake most creative professionals make is that they start by saying, there's not by introducing themselves first. 

They'll be like, hi, I'm Sarah. I'm a website designer. I've worked with 10, 000 people. And really your prospect doesn't care about that. Yeah, they will eventually, but only once you've hooked them in and shown them that they have a problem and how you're going to solve it. But now that you've said, Hey, you need an online website. 

Now you can introduce yourself and say, Hey, I'm Sarah or Michael, and I am the exact person you need when it comes to building a cohesive online website. Cause I've helped, a lot of agencies do it. They've seen lots of great results. So now here is exactly how I'm going to help you. And then that's when you can present the exact. 

Service you provide. Maybe it's like I do a five page custom website in a month, or I'm able to do it in a week. And then you like detail how you do it. And then, of course, the investment, but that's really broadly speaking, all the sales page is just all of the information someone needs to feel like, yes, I understand why I need a website. 

I understand how they're going to do it for me. And I understand what the investment is. 

Philip VanDusen: So there's a couple of things I want to dive into there and what you just said, one that I was triggered by, which is length of sales pages. Some sales pages for courses and things like that are just like interminably long. 

They just go on and on. You're scrolling scrolling, and you're just like waiting to get to the the three cards that tell you the three different levels of prices. People don't write those for no reason. They must convert if they if it's so common, people don't read that much anymore. 

People don't have the attention spans that they used to. So where do you fall on the and I would say that homepages probably need to do that work a little faster because people bounce from homepages in two seconds. So where do you fall in terms of length in, What it takes to really tell that story or go through that methodology of this, of the problem solution. 

Ash Chow: Yeah, I love that question because obviously as a writer, it is heartbreaking to hear Oh, not everyone is going to read every single word. And it's true. Not every single buyer will read every single word. But there are two ways to answer this. And the first one is, of course, thinking about the. 

Awareness spectrum. So if you, I'm not sure if you've heard of it, you've probably heard of it before, but for anyone who hasn't heard of it, your, the awareness spectrum is basically your clients might be unaware or they might be problem aware. They might be solution aware. And they might be product aware and so your clients or your audience might start anywhere on the spectrum if they start off at unaware your goal is to get them from a point where they are unaware unsure why they need this problem and unaware of what the solution is get them to the point where they understand exactly why they need your course or your offer and so if they're starting from all the way at point one then it's going to take them a lot more time Words or information to get them to the point where they understand why they should be dropping five or 10, 000 on your offer. 

So that's why those really long sales pages it might be because the audience that they're speaking to are at that cold, unaware stage. Whereas if you have done the research and it shows that your audience they're more aware of the problem, for example, then it, Might need a shorter sales page because they need less information to understand why they need this solution and how your products can help them get there and why they should make the investment so the length of your sales page is number one determined by the stage of awareness they are at and then number two. 

I'm sure you also know that there are four different types of buyers and sometimes there are some buyers that need to know every single piece of information in order to feel comfortable making that decision. There are literally some people who will have to read every single word, not once, but twice in order to understand like, okay, I feel confident investing this amount of money. 

Whereas there are other types of buyers who they just need like the top line information, which it sounds like you might be. It's just okay, cool. Just give me. What is the transformation, what's inside? How much is my investment? How much time is going to take? Okay, cool. I've just read the sub heads. 

That's enough. So really when we were writing sales pages, the the challenge for us copywriters is to figure out how to write those sales pages in a way that caters for all of those buyers. So those are a couple of different factors that influence how long your sales page should be. But in, in terms of practically speaking, I would really, the easiest way to just start off with, like, How can I identify the problems they have? 

How can I identify what the solution is? And how can I explain how I solve their problem? And that's pretty much the majority of the information you need for your own sales page. 

Philip VanDusen: So most websites have a homepage, so it's You know, the initial introduction to who you are and your services, et cetera. 

And then there may be a services page. And one of the things that we talked about earlier was how a services page needs to really read like a sales page. So how would you differentiate between how a homepage operates and how a services page operates? Or should they? Both happen on the same page 

Ash Chow: So they should ideally be happening on different pages because they both solve different purposes So I like to think of your home page as like the welcome mat. 

It's like your first impression It's like welcome to my home. This is my brand. This is who i'm about. This is the high level problem I solve and then depending on what you need Here are a few different doors you could go through if you want to know who I am in my story Take this door into my about area page. 

If you want to know exactly how I help you and how that works, come take it. Come through my services door where I'll give you all that information. If you want to see whether I'm capable of doing the work, come through my portfolio door. So the homepage is that you're just walking through the front door and then just getting that initial impression of what your house looks like and what you do and all the potential next steps they can take. 

And then your services page though, I like to see of it as like the deal closer. So this is where you then go more in depth on how you solve the problem. So if you're a website designer, it might be like. This is exactly how I do all my website design projects. This is how many pages you can expect. This is how much time you can expect it to take. 

And of course, this is how much it's going to cost. And then really going into detail about all of those things and addressing any specific questions or objections they have. But if you think of your homepage as like just getting your attention and then getting them interested, whereas your services page is like taking them from consideration to I'm ready to make a decision. 

Philip VanDusen: There's a couple of things I want to get your opinion on. One is testimonials or where you're, hearing from actual people who you, that person has done business with before. So where and when should testimonials be featured on a website or a sales page? And then also, this is a big debate, which is in the agency world anyway, or the creative professional world is, do you post prices? 

Ash Chow: Yeah, I love those questions. So in terms of prices, as a fellow, service provider myself, I like to display prices upfront because it's a great qualifier. So it means that if I've, mentioned that my sales page project starts at five and a half thousand, then if someone doesn't have the budget for that, it means I'm not wasting time. 

Getting on a call with them, and I'm also not making them feel bad about them reaching out to me. They don't have the budget, they feel embarrassed, I've been ghosted it just avoids that whole kind of mess, so I personally like to do it, and maybe it does lead to less leads overall, but it means that if I'm then spending time to get on a discovery call with someone, I know that they at least have They understand what that investment is and then we can chat about that rather than have it be a bit awkward. 

What's your budget? Like, how much is this? So it really eliminates a lot of that conversation for me. I think when you introduce price though, pricing is very Contextual, which is why, even though it's annoying, like that's why it typically appears a bit further down the sales page, because we as marketers, like we want to give you all of the information. 

So you understand why a website might cost so much. If I say website design. 10, 000. If that's a scary figure for you, you're going to leap right off and I've lost you. But if I've taken the time at the top of the sales page to explain just how important a website is and how it can potentially generate you thousands and thousands of dollars on repeat in the background, and then you see, okay, all you have to do is invest once. 

You don't have to touch your website for the next three years, but it's just going to bring you sales. Then when you see 10, 000, you're Oh, I get it because I don't, it's only a one time investment. It's going to lead me to make thousands and thousands of dollars in the background. I understand now like why it's so much. 

So to answer that question, I like to do it. To just avoid wasting time and to also just help our leads understand what the investment is and in terms of testimonials to testimonials are really strategic asset that should be strategically placed on the website. So I think a big mistake a lot of creative providers make is that they just have a. 

Testimonial section or here's what my customers are saying, and then they dump everything on testimonial into that section. And chances are, I can guarantee you, no one is going to read through all those except for you because only you care about them. Whereas, let's say, you've gotten a really great testimonial from someone who says that, Michael is an incredibly strategic. 

Website designer like no one else is really good at talking about strategy, except for Michael, but then on your sales page you include that. you provide a two hour strategy call, then I would position that testimonial about how strategic you are somewhere near that to validate or show the audience that you're not just making it up that you're a strategic person. 

Other people also think that you're one of the best people in strategy. And so now by placing that testimonial, On its own, next to that section about strategy, your prospects are much more likely to read it, and they're much more likely to agree internally that oh, other people think Michael is like a great strategist, this person's saying so, okay, I can understand why I should hire Michael over someone else who doesn't talk about strategy. 

Philip VanDusen: AI is one of the, I'm pivoting a little bit. AI is coming for all of the creative professions. And I think copywriting almost more than design. Design has a lot of development in the engineering of AI to go. What would you say to people who maybe can't afford a copywriter or who are just starting off is AI something they should use chat GPT or Claude or whatever? 

What do you recommend in that? I know you're a copywriter. You make a living copywriting and you want to support other copywriters who are professionals. I get it. But what is, what's your point of view on AI and what's it doing to your industry? 

Ash Chow: Yeah, I actually love AI. So I'm someone who does use AI a lot as a partner, as a collaborator, as a potential tool. 

I think AI is like what, Photoshop did for graphic designers, as in, it's just another tool they can use to create even better imagery and graphics for their clients. So ways that I have used. is as a brainstorming buddy. So sometimes I might be like, Oh, I'm struggling to figure out what's the difference or how to articulate difference between X and Y concept. 

Or for example, if it's an industry I'm not as familiar with let's say that interior designer client hired me and I'm not as familiar with interior design and there's certain concepts that I don't understand, I might just ask ChachiBT Hey What's the difference between feng shui and something else? 

I don't know. But so AI is a really good research tool. Number one even for audience. The best research is always asking your audience directly. But sometimes as a starting point, you might ask AI Hey, what are the challenges? That, musicians might face when it comes to this specific area and then chat GPT can just give you that surface level overview, but it might be enough to go off and then number two, I think using AI. 

Is good at producing that initial first draft. So I do obviously still see a role for myself as a copywriter in this industry because some people say no, I produce this crap, I can produce some really good stuff, especially for people who are just starting out. And who, number two, don't have the budget. 

But where I really thrive is understanding that emotional nuance that copy needs to have to really make sure that it speaks to the audience's needs and their challenges. And so I think knowing that, Is what will help copywriters survive even in an AI industry, but what AI has done is just accelerated the process. 

I find that I'm spending less time trying to wrestle with the blank page and now more time finessing something and taking it from that 100 to 150 percent mark. 

Philip VanDusen: That's excellent. I love that. I love that point of view. I use AI a lot in terms of developing YouTube titles because I know what the video is going to be on. 

I've written the script. I, and, but when it comes to a bunch of, asking it for 10 variations of this particular title, pushing on different keywords, that gives me a whole bunch of ideation that would take me forever to do. I might not come up with some of those ideas. And then I plug them into YouTube and see which is the, and to buddy and see which is the highest in SEO. 

So it again, like you use it, it's an ideation tool or a refinement tool and it gets me much farther down the road. And we as creatives know that first ideation phase where you're just getting all those ideas out on paper takes up three quarters of the time, half the time. And so it pushes you along. 

And you you developed a course, right? So you have a mini course in launch copy, right? So why did you develop that and who's it for? 

Ash Chow: So I have developed a course specifically on what to do during the pre launch period, because what I found when I was entering the launch space was there was like a lot of information about there, about what to do during the actual launch, which if you're unfamiliar is that process of you've opened the car, you said, Hey, it's time to join my course. 

It's only available for the next seven days and then cut close. That's what we in the industry refer to as the actual launch. But what I found in my research and as I was working with. With my clients is that there were The audience is sometimes just not ready to buy what you have instantly. So I was working with a really big YouTuber at the time who wanted to launch his own YouTube course. 

And what I found when, surveying his audience and talking to them one on one is that even though they liked the idea of starting a YouTube channel, a lot of them, like nearly all of them, were wrestling with such internal beliefs and fears around what are people going to think of me? And I don't want to start a YouTube channel. 

And do I have all the right equipment? And I'm not going to start a YouTube channel until it's the right time and I'm sure you've had all of those fears too, Philip, but the problem is if we don't address those beliefs and fears, then when we release the YouTube course, they might see it and they're like, okay, cool. 

That sounds cool. But. I'm scared about what people are going to think of me, maybe next time, or, Ooh, I want that, but I don't have, I only have a set amount of money. I don't know if I should buy the course or if I should buy the equipment first and then wait till next time to buy the course. So all of these beliefs are stopping them from investing in what would have been a really great opportunity. 

So what I found was missing was there was no pre launch content. Addressing those beliefs so that the audience would be ready to see the course, they would recognize no, I don't need fancy equipment. I can start with what I have. No, it doesn't matter what people think about me because they're not going to matter 10 years from now. 

No, it doesn't need to be. The right time to start because the right time is now and once they get to that place where they're like, yeah, I believe all that they're going to be far more likely to just jump into that YouTube course because they now believe it's right for them. Basically, my course helps course creators identify what are those beliefs holding their audience back and how can you create content to address those beliefs so that when you are ready to launch your course, your audience are ready to buy it as well. 

Philip VanDusen: So what does that cadence look like? Because what you're talking about essentially is a leading education, right? So it's a leading them down this path of breaking through the objections and also addressing those, those thought bubbles in the back of people's heads that keeping them stuck. 

And so what does that kind of cadence look like in terms of that education? Do you do that through content? Do you do that through emails? What is the recommended way, kind of format to do it? And what is the cadence or how long does that process take before you can really get into the launch cycle? 

Ash Chow: Yeah, that's really great. And the answer is everyone's favorite answer is it depends. But of course you see really big cause creators like Your Amy Porterfield, Stu McLaren, you can tell when they've started their prelaunch and they usually start 60 to 90 days and 60 to 90 days out, what they're doing is number one, creating content specifically related to. 

their course and addressing all of those beliefs and objections. And they're not talking about anything else other than the topic of their course. And then number two, in the 1690 days, they're also audience building or list building is what you and I would call it. And they're creating lots of lead magnets specifically intended to address those objections. 

So if we take Amy Porterfield's course Digital Course Academy, which is all about teaching people how to create their first course. It's very meta. So she will create a lot of content talking about like, Why you should have a course for your business, why it doesn't matter if you don't have an audience yet, why you're an ex, why you should consider yourself an expert, even if no one else does, like all of those little addressing all those beliefs. 

And so she's doing that 60 to 90 days out because she needs a big list to hit the numbers that she wants, whereas for me, a lot of the people that I work with doing it all themselves, so in, in order to stop them from feeling overwhelmed, I say, you know what? 30 days of targeted pre launch is enough. 

And so that cadence might look like starting four weeks out, all you're doing is talking about the topic of your course. You're selling an interior design course, all you're talking about is interior design and addressing any beliefs and objections around interior design. And in terms of the content, that is whatever medium you're already So for you, I know you've got a really great YouTube channel, so you could use YouTube as that medium and then you might repurpose it to your email list and repurpose it to your socials. 

It's just whatever you're currently showing up on, the medium doesn't matter. It's more the topics and what you say to address those beliefs and objections your audience might have. 

Philip VanDusen: So let's say we were doing it in email. And you had 30 days and you were planning on educating, warming up, pre launch to your email list and that's your form of content. 

What is the is there a customer journey that goes on in that email sequence and what is the cadence and how many emails in general, like what can people consume or what is too much? What's your point of view on that? 

Ash Chow: I think cadence, it all depends on how much content you're already feeding your audience. 

So I know someone like you, I'm sure it's quite consistent. If you, I assume you email your list at least once a week, or you're good at nurturing them. I try. Yeah, you try, but they've definitely heard of you before, right? Like they've heard from you before, which is good. So then you can continue that cadence of like once a week. 

And then the closer you get to your launch, you can amp it up a bit, right? So if you do say An email a week and in the previous 30 days, and then maybe the week before your launch, you do two or three more emails to let them know that something's coming. Then at least you're preparing your audience. 

It's what sucky is if you just, you don't talk to your audience at all, and then you want to launch something and then you send them 10 different emails. Like that's bad. Okay. That will skyrocket your unsubscribe rate. But so in terms of how much is too much, it just depends on what your audience are used to already, number one. 

And then number two, to make sure you're not pissing everybody off, a lot of people like to create a wait list. So meaning you really invite the subscribers who are interested to opt in, aka, wait. Consent to being risk to receiving a lot more emails, and so that way you can increase your frequency without worrying that you're pissing them off because they knew what they were signing up for, right? 

So that's the the cadency question in terms of what you say to them or the customer journey. I actually created a framework. Called the power framework, which is really all about what are the main things you need to do to get your audience ready for that launch? So the P in power stands for prime. 

And that's pretty much what I just said, which is if you are creating a course on interior design, start priming your audience to think about interior design all the time. Just make it top of mind for them. Okay. Don't talk about your dogs, like none of that. Just keep them focused on The benefits of interior design and how it will transform their space and how it will transform their life. 

So that's P. And then O is overcoming the objections that we were just talking about before. So for the YouTube channel, all those objections were things like, I need to buy equipment first before I start, or I need to make sure I have enough time in my life before I start. Whereas for an interior design course, it might be like an objection might be like, Do I really need someone special to come do this for me? 

Like, why can't I do it myself? So it would be creating content, specifically address those objections around your topic. And then the W is like, why? So why you, why should I learn from you, Philip, over everyone else talking to creative professionals? Or why should we learn from Amy Porterfield compared to everyone else who has now started talking about courses? 

So that's where you really talk more about yourself. Your mission, why you're creating this thing, why you care so much so that people can form that connection with you over the millions of other competitors in your space. And then as part of that is E, which is establishing expertise. So I don't want to pay you money, Philip, unless I know that you have created these results for other people, right? 

So I want to know the fact that you have worked for heaps of. Awesome brands before, right? I want to know the fact that you've been the creative director of so many awesome businesses. I'm like, okay, cool. He must know what he's talking about. So that's why he's worth the money. And then the last one is our re shifting beliefs, which is pretty much similar to what I said before, where your audience currently hold a lot of thoughts and beliefs about your topic. 

And you need to reshift them or help them adopt the new belief that they want to have. So for the YouTube channel, the old belief was people are going to think, people are going to judge me. People are going to think I'm stupid. Whereas we want them to adopt a new belief of, Who cares? Like their opinion doesn't matter, only yours does, who are you going to worry about 10 years from now? 

The fact that these people made fun of you or the fact that you're still not where you want to be. So that's you would create a piece of content guiding them to adopt this new belief of stop caring about other people. So the power framework in a nutshell. Hopefully you can see how all of those letters. 

started leading to a lot of different content ideas that you could weave into the emails that you send out periodically before your launch to get your audience to that place where they're like, yeah, I'm so fired up to start the YouTube channel. I'm so fired up to redecorate the space. Now I'm ready to buy. 

Philip VanDusen: Excellent. I love that power framework. That is awesome. So if you had one piece of advice that people should take away from this conversation, creative professionals who are struggling with their own website copy, what would that piece of advice be? 

Ash Chow: My number one piece of advice is to just Listen to what your audience are saying. 

And when I say listen, it doesn't necessarily mean with your ears, although that's the best way, is to just ask them directly, what are you struggling with? How do you feel? Keep an open mind because the results they give you, like your story, it might completely surprise you, but also don't be afraid to just pay attention to what they're saying in online forums to each other what they're saying Yeah, in social media comments, because that's just going to give you a lot of gold, a lot of content ideas, a lot of the words you're going to use. 

So just, that's my number one advice. And then my second one though, is to like, just don't be afraid. of the messy first draft. I think a lot of people hold back from redoing their copy or redoing anything because they're just scared of it looking messy, but it's literally supposed to be. Like, even professional writers, we all have terrible drafts sitting in our folders, but there is no beauty without mess, so just embrace it. 

Philip VanDusen: I love that. So true of the creative process. So you have a free guide that you're going to give away to listeners on how to write kick ass sales page copies. So can you lead people to where that is and how they can get in touch with you? 

Ash Chow: Yeah. So I would love to connect with everyone on Instagram and you can find me at. 

It's ash chow and on my website ashchow. com you can see the way that I extracted my own website copy and my services page and you'll also find my free sales page guide on my website and if the pre launch topic also interested you, you can also find a free guide on my power framework on my website as well at www. 

ashchow. com. 

Philip VanDusen: Awesome. So Ash Chow, it's a pleasure to have spoken with you today. Thank you so much for coming on the show and I hope we can do it again sometime. 

Ash Chow: Thank you.